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The Telegraph: Clive must not fall. The arch-imperialist deserves his place in Whitehall

Ned Ma

Clive, Havelock, Gordon, Churchill and many more must fall.


John Money
Ned Ma why??

John Burton
Ned Ma Then you must fall. Or leave if you haven't already

Ned Ma

John Money
Like in many other countries, there are things omitted from the school curriculum on purpose. Let's start with Clive / Clive of India. He was a colonial figure. If you are a supporter of the British empire then the discussion will end soon. While celebrated for his military successes in establishing British dominance, Robert Clive is also criticized for amassing a vast personal fortune through corruption and for policies that led to the Bengal famine of 1770, which resulted in the deaths of millions. Horace Walpole, Whig politician and author, said of the “sovereigns of Bengal”: “They starved millions in India by monopolies and plunder, and almost raised a famine at home by the luxury occasioned by their opulence raising the price of everything, till the poor could not purchase bread.” More or we proceed to Havelock?

Ned Ma
John Burton Do you have the minimum intelligence and knowledge to engage with what I have posted about Clive? I doubt it. Your comment is of an arrogant, ignorant bigot. At least John Money asked why.

Ned Ma
John Burton If you hate Britain? And you consider critical reading of history, national icons, etc. 'hate'? Is that a scholastic knowledge? And what do you mean by Britain? Is Britiain one clean entity or a mix like many or most countries of progressive and reactionary, good and bad? What do you mean by 'lefty'? I hear the word thrown up so often when someone someone disagrees with another on this page.


John Burton
Ned Ma "He was a colonial figure", "If you are a supporter of the British Empire then the discussion ends here". Great arguments. He's "criticised" by certain people because a fortune he amassed by supporting Mir Jafar

Ned Ma
John Burton It is a fact that he was a colonial figure, corrupt
Ned Ma
John Burton And here is what happened when Evelyn Baring was governor of Kenya between 1952 and 1959. Facts, not hate. “White and Black agents of empire perpetrated horrific crimes in defense of British rule in Kenya. They used electric shock and hooked suspects up to car batteries. They tied suspects to vehicle bumpers with just enough rope to drag them to death. They employed burning cigarettes, fire, and hot coals. They thrust bottles (often broken), gun barrels, knives, snakes, vermin, sticks, and hot eggs up men’s rectums and into women’s vaginas. They crushed bones and teeth; sliced off fingers or their tips; and castrated men with specially designed instruments or by beating a suspect’s testicles “till the scrotum burst,” according to Anglican church officials. Some used a kiboko, or a rhino whip, for beating; others used clubs, fists, and truncheons. “Bucket fatigue” was a routine practice, as were various forms of human excrement torture. Mau Mau suspects and detainees were forced to clean nightsoil buckets barehanded and run for hours around a compound holding a full nightsoil bucket aloft, which then spilled over, encrusting the person holding it with feces and urine. No Kikuyu—man, woman, or child—was safe.” 
–Caroline Elkins, Legacy of Violence, 2022, pp. 1036-37 in the ebook version, and implemented policies that led to a famine. Those are not arguments. Prove otherwise.

John Burton
Ned Ma You are not an aurguer, hence why you say your opinions aren't arguments, so you're not worth much of my time. Still, forgetting the very severe drought, the policies at the time probably did contribute, but you've got the idea in your head that it was intentional. You probably also blame Churchill for the famine in 1943 when there was another drought, Japan had invaded Burma and Britain was fighting a war in Europe, the Atlantic, North Africa South Asia and the Pacific etc. You'll also ignore the multiple (although less severe) famines that have happened since, and the fact that despite plenty of time to correct the mistakes of the past, 194 million of 810 million impoverished people live in India - nearly 80 years since independence. Odd that you're still raw about so far in the past. Maybe you should move to India or somewhere else and help.


Ned Ma
John Burton You digressed on purpose. We can talk about India and 1943 after 1. you answer my questions, very basic ones, 2. Clive's legacy. 3. you argue with what Caroline Elkins wrote about Kenya. Here are my questions again. If you hate Britain? And you consider critical reading of history, national icons, etc. 'hate'? Is that a scholastic knowledge? And what do you mean by Britain? Is Britiain one clean entity or a mix like many or most countries of progressive and reactionary, good and bad? What do you mean by 'lefty'? I hear the word thrown up so often when someone someone disagrees with another on this page. Who are you to ask me to leave? Am I in your proprtery? I must fall? Then you blame of desribing you this or that? Why?

No more replies from Burton.


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